tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6817682567561164198.post4779882140156940473..comments2024-02-20T09:54:37.105-06:00Comments on Talking About Ritual Magick: Astral Initiations, Self Initiations and the Need for Exterior ChallengesFrater.Barrabbashttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11689013897789072360noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6817682567561164198.post-84361681680139783542011-01-13T00:06:22.799-06:002011-01-13T00:06:22.799-06:00@ Augustine Amana
When Frater Barrabbas qualifies...@ Augustine Amana<br /><br />When Frater Barrabbas qualifies what the EOGD is offering as "astral-only" initiation, he is making reference to the so-called "astral initiation" sold over the internet by Robert Zink.<br /><br />"Astral-only", in my opinion is a fair characterization of this peculiar practice, as<br /><br />1. It is performed without the physical presence of the candidate in the temple. Moreover, <br />2. Mr. Zink has argued (in my opinion, incorrectly) that all initiation happens on the astral anyway, so "astral" initiation works without the physical body present in the temple.<br /><br />The two above practices and arguments by Mr. Zink clearly render Frater Barrabas' characterization of this odd practice as "astral only" as being quite an accurate description of actual EOGD practice and position.David Griffinhttp://www.golden-dawn.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6817682567561164198.post-25530363031674355762011-01-12T10:57:14.710-06:002011-01-12T10:57:14.710-06:00the first part of my post left so I'll repost ...the first part of my post left so I'll repost it: Frater Barrabbas , I believe you may have over-simplified something in order to disqualify Mr. Zink's approach to astral initiation, viz. it isn't astral-only. I've spoken to an adept of his order and he says that in no uncertain terms Robert suggests that people obtain a physical initiation; not because he doubts the effectiveness of the astral, but rather because he recognizes the value of the psycho-pomp; and would rather teach than exclude if that is the only reason for someone not becoming familiar with the Golden Dawn. . Secondly, I believe that in that blog-post you mentioned of his, he states that in order for someone to reach the grade of portal they must physically undergo the initiations of the outer order.<br /> Having been a member of a few different orders where I had gone through a physical initiation it surprises and saddens me that even when a person goes through a physical initiation they don't put forth the work to transform themselves. Or opt to sit for six hours in one night so that they can reach Master Mason as quickly as possible.Augustine Amananoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6817682567561164198.post-71933380966300107302011-01-12T10:55:48.097-06:002011-01-12T10:55:48.097-06:00In your own Equinox ceremony it states: Fratres et...In your own Equinox ceremony it states: Fratres et Sorores of the Order, seeing that the whole intention of the Lower Mysteries, or of external initiation, is by the intervention of the Symbol, Ceremonial, and Sacrament, so to lead the Soul that it may be withdrawn from the attraction of matter and delivered from the absorption therein, whereby it walks in somnambulism, knowing not whence it cometh nor whither it goeth; and seeing also, that thus withdrawn, the Soul by true direction must be brought to study of Divine Things, that it may offer the only clean Oblation and acceptable sacrifice, which is Love expressed towards God, Man and the Universe. Now, therefore, I confess and testify thereto, from my Throne in this Temple, and I promise, so far as in me lies, to lead you by the Rites of this Order, faithfully conserved, and exhibited with becoming reverence, that through such love and such sacrifice, you may be prepared in due time for the greater Mysteries, the Supreme and inward Initiation.<br />I would opt for a physical initiation. However, it is not a guarantee that anything has taken place within in a candidate. Nor, according to the Hierophant, does it seem like the physical is the focus for the Supreme and inward initiation.Augustine Amananoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6817682567561164198.post-43080905377861640732011-01-12T10:54:38.234-06:002011-01-12T10:54:38.234-06:00I tried posting this comment earlier, but it appea...I tried posting this comment earlier, but it appears to be to big to be a comment *LOL* so I'll put in parts. <br />Frater Barrabbas , I believe you may have over-simplified something in order to disqualify Mr. Zink's approach to astral initiation, viz. it isn't astral-only. I've spoken to an adept of his order and he says that in no uncertain terms Robert suggests that people obtain a physical initiation; not because he doubts the effectiveness of the astral, but rather because he recognizes the value of the psycho-pomp; and would rather teach than exclude if that is the only reason for someone not becoming familiar with the Golden Dawn. . Secondly, I believe that in that blog-post you mentioned of his, he states that in order for someone to reach the grade of portal they must physically undergo the initiations of the outer order. <br />Having been a member of a few different orders where I had gone through a physical initiation it surprises and saddens me that even when a person goes through a physical initiation they don't put forth the work to transform themselves. Or opt to sit for six hours in one night so that they can reach Master Mason as quickly as possible.Augustine Amananoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6817682567561164198.post-44640737283280488362011-01-12T09:57:52.107-06:002011-01-12T09:57:52.107-06:00Frater Barrabbas , I believe you may have over-sim...Frater Barrabbas , I believe you may have over-simplified something in order to disqualify Mr. Zink's approach to astral initiation, viz. it isn't astral-only. I've spoken to an adept of his order and he says that in no uncertain terms Robert suggests that people obtain a physical initiation; not because he doesn't believe in the effectiveness of astral initiation, but because he recognizes the psyhological value of the psychopomp; but because not everyone can afford that, they provide the work on the astral. Secondly, I believe that in that blog-post you mentioned of his, he states that in order for someone to reach the grade of portal in his EOGD they must physically undergo the initiations of the Outer Order. <br />Having been a member of a few different orders where I had gone through a physical initiation it surprises and saddens me that even when a person goes through a physical initiation they don't put forth the work to transform themselves. Or opt to sit for four to six hours in one night so that they can reach Master Mason as quickly as possible. Physical initiation is no more of a guarantee to spiritual evolution than its alternative.<br />From the Golden Dawn's own ceremony it reads during the confession of the Hierophant at the Equinox 'Fratres et Sorores of the Order, seeing that the whole intention of the Lower Mysteries, or of external initiation, is by the intervention of the Symbol, Ceremonial, and Sacrament, so to lead the Soul that it may be withdrawn from the attraction of matter and delivered from the absorption therein, whereby it walks in somnambulism, knowing not whence it cometh nor whither it goeth; and seeing also, that thus withdrawn, the Soul by true direction must be brought to study of Divine Things, that it may offer the only clean Oblation and acceptable sacrifice, which is Love expressed towards God, Man and the Universe. Now, therefore, I confess and testify thereto, from my Throne in this Temple, and I promise, so far as in me lies, to lead you by the Rites of this Order, faithfully conserved, and exhibited with becoming reverence, that through such love and such sacrifice, you may be prepared in due time for the greater Mysteries, the Supreme and inward Initiation.' <br />- Personally, I feel that physical initiation is at the very least preferable, if not necessary. However, it seems that even during physical initiation candidates are just as likely to have gone through an over-dramatized spiritual play; and that the concern of the Golden Dawn was never really on the physical, but on the spiritual.Augustine Amananoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6817682567561164198.post-88639965087526541792011-01-06T00:24:48.009-06:002011-01-06T00:24:48.009-06:00Ah...sorry, if I misread you Frater. Still waiting...Ah...sorry, if I misread you Frater. Still waiting for my comments on his post (posted several times now) to appear... sad, very sad. :(Peregrinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09508191641503321789noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6817682567561164198.post-81711175034419626962011-01-05T23:37:46.418-06:002011-01-05T23:37:46.418-06:00@Peregrin - I believe that my statement was that a...@Peregrin - I believe that my statement was that anyone who is unwilling to engage in a cogent dialogue about potentially disputed doctrines is like a "snake oil salesman." He will allow a dialogue between himself and various plants who will talk up his product, and the lone dissenter is excluded. I think that everyone knows the analogy, and it is not name calling but merely telling truth to obvious deceit.<br /><br />I know that I have not been allowed any slack for any of my statements here, since I appear to have a pretty sharp group of readers and friends out in the blogsphere and in real life. I have to defend my statements, but that is because I allow a free discourse of ideas. Apparently, RZ is not anywhere near as open. Anyway, enough said on that topic.Frater.Barrabbashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11689013897789072360noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6817682567561164198.post-18698576313991275352011-01-05T19:40:30.307-06:002011-01-05T19:40:30.307-06:00Knee jerk reaction...using the word "Flame&qu...Knee jerk reaction...using the word "Flame" was incorrect, apologies.John Andersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13983496546069265739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6817682567561164198.post-56371959844283851082011-01-05T18:30:53.338-06:002011-01-05T18:30:53.338-06:00Care Fr Puer Aeternus,
We may have a different de...Care Fr Puer Aeternus,<br /><br />We may have a different definition of flaming here. Fr Barrabbas and I may disagree on some things, but I am always impressed by his presentation of thoughts and facts, not ad hominem attacks. I see no personal attacks in the post above, only a refutation of ideas GH Fr PDR posted on a public blog.<br /><br />Only in his comment above does he get personal, and call GH Fr PDR a 'snake oil salesman'.<br /><br />Back and forth arguing magical points and theology etc without recourse to personal attacks is not flaming, and I think very needed in our broader community. Thanks :)Peregrinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09508191641503321789noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6817682567561164198.post-33354574099077538722011-01-05T18:02:49.280-06:002011-01-05T18:02:49.280-06:00Not another GD flame article!
Over the years ive s...Not another GD flame article!<br />Over the years ive seen a lot of mud slinging in the Golden Dawn community and thats the main reason I left one particular GD group was due to immaturity from several groups. It was ridiculous. The last thing I expected to read, on this fantastic blog, was the above article, w/ names mentioned. I am honestly surprised. From a system that should be espousing personal and collective growth, there sure is a lot of Jockeying of egos for first place in the Golden Dawn Race. Dont get me wrong, I love the system, ive met some great people, but all the great people have been humble, dedicated and walk the path even some w/ a limp as they heal and grow. The others seemed more concerned about who is right and who is wrong...that is not an attractive quality in anyone, let alone an adept. The path instills wisdom and clarity, the dross will fall to the wayside as we progress. We need not point it out...if the dross lingers, keep working or move on if you are compelled to look at anothers. <br />Ive met met a leader of a large GD group and been part of their initiations and rituals...I prefer a solo path until that particular group finds its inner wisdom.<br />Pax to every one mentioned in the article above, Lux to everyone striving to find themselves and their place in the universe, and Blessings to you Frater Barrabbas for this wonderful blog.<br />Puer AeternusJohn Andersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13983496546069265739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6817682567561164198.post-1344223544593411522011-01-05T15:37:51.784-06:002011-01-05T15:37:51.784-06:00Thanks for all of your posts, everyone. I think th...Thanks for all of your posts, everyone. I think that all of this proves that Robert Zink is just a snake oil salesman and is not interested in any kind of dialogue that doesn't agree with him. He has isolated himself and his group for some very shady reasons.Frater.Barrabbashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11689013897789072360noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6817682567561164198.post-4990686726813975592011-01-05T14:56:10.978-06:002011-01-05T14:56:10.978-06:00Care Frater Barrabas,
Considering all fo the buzz...Care Frater Barrabas,<br /><br />Considering all fo the buzz generated by GH Frater Zink's latest article in astral-only initiation, it would be nice if Robert Zink would actually answer in sincere dialogue the myriad of objections that have been raised by scholars all across the magickal community.<br /><br />It doesn't really matter who Frater Zink chooses to dialogue with: Nick Farrell, Sam Scarborough, Peregrin, me - or even someone from outside of the Golden Dawn community like you - about this. What matters is that the matter be directly discussed in an honest and forthright manner.<br /><br />As long as Frater Zink continues to use his blog as though it were a Blogosphere billboard, then nothing will ever be resolved in regard to this thorny and divisive issue, and the Golden Dawn community will not be able to move forward towards greater harmony.<br /><br />David GriffinDavid Griffinhttp://www.golden-dawn.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6817682567561164198.post-62608163967889729752011-01-05T14:25:38.129-06:002011-01-05T14:25:38.129-06:00Care Frater Barrabas,
Considering all of the buzz...Care Frater Barrabas,<br /><br />Considering all of the buzz that GH Frater Robert Zink's latest article on "Astral" Initiation has generated, it would be very nice if Robert would actually engage SOMEONE in the Blogosphere in actual debate or at least sincere dialogue about this thorny topic.<br /><br />It doesn't really matter if it were Sam Scarborough, Nick Farrell, Peregrin, me - or even someone like you from outside the Golden Dawn community - whose objections Frater Zink would actually address in real dialogue with about this.<br /><br />As long as Robert continues to use his blog as though it were a Blogosphere billboard, the discussion about this thorny issue sadly can not advance and the Golden Dawn community will not be able to move beyond it to greater harmony.<br /><br />- David GriffinDavid Griffinhttp://www.golden-dawn.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6817682567561164198.post-75311910374360657302011-01-04T18:47:34.803-06:002011-01-04T18:47:34.803-06:00Care Frater,
thank you for this very informative ...Care Frater,<br /><br />thank you for this very informative post and excerpts from your book. Your approach to showing the required physical nature of initiation is very good and very impressive. <br /><br />I think you hit the nail on the head when you point out how silly it would be for someone to claim astral initiation into a Witchcraft tradition. In all my years, I too have never met anyone claiming this. To assume that somehow the Golden Dawn and other magical traditions are less requiring of the sacrament of the real, bodily wisdom that stems from physical initiation belittles these traditions.<br /><br />I responded to GH Fr PDR (Robert Zink) as soon as I saw his post. Three times I have posted my (opposing) comments, but they are yet to appear (though he has put up two new posts on another blog in the meantime). I would hate to think there is censorship going on here based solely on opinion, but am beginning to suspect this. In any case, I expanded my comments and put a post on MOTO on the subject, which agrees with you but addressing GH Fr PDR's points directly. Thanks<br /><br />http://magicoftheordinary.wordpress.com/2011/01/04/astral-initiation/Peregrinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09508191641503321789noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6817682567561164198.post-62715391294920892202011-01-04T14:55:35.081-06:002011-01-04T14:55:35.081-06:00@Ananael Qaa - ROFLMAO!@Ananael Qaa - ROFLMAO!Frater.Barrabbashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11689013897789072360noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6817682567561164198.post-9025899432108151742011-01-04T14:33:50.074-06:002011-01-04T14:33:50.074-06:00For anybody who's still on the fence after all...For anybody who's still on the fence after all that, look at it this way: If I were to take a photograph of you, slap it on a sock puppet, and walk the puppet through the Golden Dawn Neophyte ceremony, would you feel initiated? Of course you wouldn't. That's "astral initiation," folks!Scott Stenwickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12389664381513219613noreply@blogger.com